How do feminist oppress men? Plus other questions

From my previous answering questions post comes yet more questions from “bob”. So here they are:

“How do feminist oppress men, or how do they take away men's rights?”

Two ways:

One way is by pushing ideas into the zeitgeist that are anti-male, a good example of this is the Norwegian board of women law (where 40% of the boards of companies must be female) and any quota based law. These laws are not necessarily passed by feminists but are the result of feminist/leftist memes that hold that equal outcomes are necessarily the product of systemic sexism against women and therefore laws must be passed to pass power from the privileged (men) to the underprivileged (women). That unequal outcomes point absolutely to sexism is a though based upon the meme that men and women are the same. After all, if they’re not the same then that difference might explain the differences in outcomes in certain professions – an idea that feminist do not entertain.

The second way is direct action my feminists be it male only university courses (May Daly) or by self-professed feminists who are usually in the government. A good example of this is Harriett Harman who would actually pack the board of a bank with women. Which is direct sexism.

“What rights don''t[sic] men have?”

I make videos for a reason. If I may quote a section from my “Men are more oppressed than women” video.

First unlike the example above this pension tale is genuine oppression. Men in the UK have to work until 65 to qualify for a full pension, women have to work until 60 and generally make less and have more paternity leave. Laws that impose different standards on us based on our sex. Sounds like oppression to me.

How about the fact that discrimination against men is governmentally mandated. Forget about the companies and the universities. The most solid example of this is the new leader of the conservative party in the UK proposed quotas to get the shortlist of political candidates to be half women [2]. Where you see quotas read discrimination.

How about the right to reproductive control. When a woman becomes pregnant then she can abort, give up for adoption and in America shortly after the birth she can abandon the baby and resolve herself of parentage of that baby, this is called safe haven abandonment. When a man gets a woman pregnant then he is screwed, his entire life now becomes a script that the woman will write. If he wants the baby and she doesn’t tough for him, if he doesn’t want the baby and she does then tough for him also.

How about the right to equal protection? Our fascist police state will oppressively arrest a man for a woman’s violence because only men can abuse. A message that is spread by our system and our politicians.

How about the denial of parentage for men? When a split happens the man is treated as sub-human, completely controlled by the government who tell him when he can see his children and when he can’t like he is some sort of criminal.

How about divorce? Where a woman is entitled to her husbands assets and men are made to pay out large sums of money to their wives from businesses that they made succeed. A recent case involved a large payout and continual payouts every year for the rest of the woman’s life!

A man is more likely to be convicted and convicted for longer periods of time than a woman for a similar crime, like murder. We need only look at the attitudes surrounding the Clara Harris case and we see the sympathy that is poured on a woman murderer.

Health spending, for every £1 spend on men’s health care, £8 is spent on women’s health care [3]. Government and charity spending for breast cancer is 37 millions, it’s 10 million for prostate cancer, both diseases kill as many. So the government is spending more to protect a certain segment of the population, how about that?

http://www.true-equality.net/archive/2008/05/10/men-are-more-oppressed-than-women.aspx

“What power do the feminist have to do so if their only power is their voice?”

Ideas are powerful things. The mass murderers of history got into power, in part, by appealing to the masses with ideas. Theories on repressed memory syndrome were used to implant memories of abuse into the minds of patients, by psychologists, and led to convictions of completely innocent day-care workers (many of whom were women) and fathers.

Feminists are an advocacy group who have the current position, of representing women and being equated with what is good for women. I don’t believe this is so but nonetheless, they can influence policy, craft laws and last but not least they can indoctrinate young women and men with their ideas through the apparatus of university.

Never. Ever. Underestimate the power of ideas.

“What's wrong with protesting,[sic] isn't being active part of activism?”

I believe they are protesting on behalf of bad values. That is what I object to in feminism. Are you talking about physical protests? I expect it. Any protest that gets to obnoxious and loud will irritate me, even if I support the cause (tea parties for example).

“Also, are you anti any other movements?”

I am anti any movement that stands against liberty or/and on the side of political correctness.

I am against antiquated and corrupted victimist movements such as feminist and “blackism” or minority racist movements such as the modern black movements or any that is based upon race.

I am against pure racist movements such as the black panthers, K.K.K or white supremacists in general.

I am against the general milieu of anti-freedom movements such as socialism, Nazism, communism, Maoism, Islamism, etc.

I am against radical animal rights movements which are based on the idea of equating humans and animals (like P.E.T.A.), not the ones which want decent treatment for animals.

I am against movements based upon magic, which want the consequences of that magic to be influenced upon others. Such as creationism pseudoscience and religious movements.

I am against anti-science movements such as creationism and anti-vaccination and feminism (yes, many victimist movements have strong anti-science components).

I think I covered most of the bases. In short, I am against most movements as well as the idea of movements. Because at heart, movements are made up of people who represent a certain mindset, the mindset that the world revolves around their particular issue and they tend to view it in the extreme. Movements inevitably tend towards degradation such as feminist fighting for genuine equal rights for women to become the twisted movement it is today. They get invested in perpetuating the movement, and do so, normally by shifting the goalposts of what they oppose and manufacturing new controversies to fight.

Posted on: Friday, June 18, 2010 1:52 PM
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Comments

  1. Posted by: Pankaj on 6/18/2010 2:38 PM
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    Understand that feminists along with supporting chivalrists have successfully flipped the legal standard for many sex related crime - from innocent until proven guilty - to guilty until proven innocent - and most feminists I have come across argue for a "guilty even if proven innocent" standard.

    Mark, I wanted to let you know that in the Supreme court of India has recently stated that an illiterate woman, if she accuses anyone of rape - is to be automatically considered truthful (aka. enough proof for conviction of the accused). The stated reasoning was - "Why would she lie? It is after all so humiliating and denigrating for a woman to accuse anyone of rape (despite the legally enforced anonymity), so she must be telling the truth." So all a woman has to do is not educate herself and she has the power to send a person behind bars for a decade.. any person whatsoever. Note that already any woman who alleges rape cannot be crossexamined in court, except in exceptional circumstances.
  2. Posted by: Mark on 6/18/2010 5:18 PM
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    Ain't India grand? There is a lot of mysandry there. Thanks for the heads-up on the depressing news.
  3. Posted by: TDOM on 6/19/2010 4:37 AM
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    Hey Mark,

    I while back I published an article on my blog entitled Would Men be Oppressed in a Feminist Society? It was just the first of several intended segments on the subject. Looks like I might have to get around to writing the next few segments.

    The pension example might be an example of actual oppression (the execise of power in a cruel and unjust manner), but most of your examples are of discrimination. There is a huge difference which I describe in another article Have women Been Oppressed?. You also mention the universtiy as a place where feminists indoctrinate us with ideas. But it is even more insidious than that. Feminists have utilized the entire educational system for their own benefit. this is easy since it is the most highly female dominated place in the workforce.

    It begins in preschool with the emphasis on early education, particularly reading. Cognitively, girls are ahead of boys in these skills on a developmental level. Theis produces far more early success for girls and early failure for boys with education. the process continues into elementary school where there are no special programs for boys to help close the gap. Normal boy behavior is not tolerated and boys are disciplined far more often and harshly and are diagnosed with ADHD at four times the rate of girls. Emphasis on physical activity such as PE asnd recess is also being cut back. Boys need this activity moreso than girls to discharge excess energy and help them focus. Further many special programs exist for girls who may not be as good at things like math and science. Each of these are very subtle forms of discrimination that are designed to make schools very girls friendly, but boy hostile environments and to deny equal oppotunity and equal access to boys. It results in higher graduation rates, better grades, and a greater liklihood for continuing to higher education for girls. Yet we blame boys, with the media calling them "slackers" or portraying them as troublemakers and cheaters when they become dissatisfied and disinterested in school.

    -TDOM
  4. Posted by: bob on 6/19/2010 9:09 AM
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    (where 40% of the boards of companies must be female)


    How does that oppress men? That means 60% are probably men, which is more than 40%. That's still unequal for women.

    therefore laws must be passed to pass power from the privileged (men) to the underprivileged (women).


    To even things out, it's not like they're demanding women be the majority or the only.

    That unequal outcomes point absolutely to sexism is a though based upon the meme that men and women are the same.


    Men and women are not the same, I think the point is that women can achieve as much as men in the workplace even if it's in different ways.

    A good example of this is Harriett Harman who would actually pack the board of a bank with women. Which is direct sexism.

    After all, if they’re not the same then that difference might explain the differences in outcomes in certain professions – an idea that feminist do not entertain.


    How is that any more sexist than someone saying they would put men in charge of manual labor tasks?
    If physical and lack of estrogen advantages can explain why men are the majority in certain professions, why can't mental and lack of testosterone advantages explain why women are the majority in certain professions?

    First unlike the example above this pension tale is genuine oppression. Men in the UK have to work until 65 to qualify for a full pension, women have to work until 60


    Women can't be topless.

    and generally make less and have more paternity leave.


    Don't those kind of balance out? And anyway, with women usually getting custody and the role women play in the family as the nurturer and women being the ones who carry the baby and give birth, wouldn't women need more paternity leave?

    How about the right to reproductive control.


    condoms

    When a woman becomes pregnant then she can abort, give up for adoption and in America shortly after the birth she can abandon the baby and resolve herself of parentage of that baby, this is called safe haven abandonment.


    That's because the baby is formed in the woman's body. And women have the right to control over their bodies. If the mother doesn't want the child, wouldn't the child automatically go to the father unless they both agreed on adoption? But mothers don't always know who the father is, and fathers don't always know that they're fathers.

    How about the right to equal protection? Our fascist police state will oppressively arrest a man for a woman’s violence because only men can abuse. A message that is spread by our system and our politicians.


    Which is wrong, but are you saying that women don't get arrested for abuse against men? I've also seen women get arrested for assaulting a man who is very abusive to them. The woman got sick and tired of the abuse and fought back, at which point the man was able to play the victim because the woman's action was more recent.

    It's not that men can only abuse, men usually largely have a physical advantage over women. And when it comes to two people in a fight, whether it be a man and a woman or two men or two women or an adult and a child, the person with a largely physical advantage has the power. Mainly because of options. If weaker person attacks stronger person, stronger person has the option of attacking back or restraining. If stronger person attacks weaker person, weaker person has the option of attacking back.

    How about the denial of parentage for men? When a split happens the man is treated as sub-human, completely controlled by the government who tell him when he can see his children and when he can’t like he is some sort of criminal.


    Same happens to the woman that doesn't get custody.

    How about divorce? Where a woman is entitled to her husbands assets and men are made to pay out large sums of money to their wives from businesses that they made succeed. A recent case involved a large payout and continual payouts every year for the rest of the woman’s life!


    Women who make more money also have to pay alimony. But you only by law have to pay until thay remarry.

    A man is more likely to be convicted and convicted for longer periods of time than a woman for a similar crime, like murder. We need only look at the attitudes surrounding the Clara Harris case and we see the sympathy that is poured on a woman murderer.


    Again, there are a lot of things taken into consideration before sentencing. Why they did it, do they show remorse, what people speaking on their behalf have to say, have they been convicted before, is this normal behavior for this person, do they plead guilty or not. And the argument isn't that the men are getting too much time and being done wrong, so that doesn't have anything to do with oppression or rights being taken away. Also what I realized is, the majority of people in prison in general and who argue they were givin too much time are nonwhites. And the people who usually get off on crimes committed are people able to pay off the judge, or are in a certain position of power or authority, which is usually white men.

    Health spending, for every £1 spend on men’s health care, £8 is spent on women’s health care [3].


    Aren't women more likely to seak health care, talk about all the problems they're having, and not be able to afford health care.

    Government and charity spending for breast cancer is 37 millions, it’s 10 million for prostate cancer, both diseases kill as many. So the government is spending more to protect a certain segment of the population, how about that?


    Breast cancer affects both men and women.

    Also read some of the comments here, http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/10/25/prostate-cancer-vs-breast-cancer-why-the-disparity-in-awareness/, and you may find some answers.

    Are you anti-MRA, why or why not?



  5. Posted by: bob on 6/19/2010 11:59 AM
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    the process continues into elementary school where there are no special programs for boys to help close the gap.


    Girls are naturally smarter than boys, therefore the gap isn't caused by discrimination. Like the gap between boys and girls when it comes to physical strength, there are no special programs to help close that.

    Normal boy behavior is not tolerated and boys are disciplined far more often and harshly and are diagnosed with ADHD at four times the rate of girls.


    Normal boy behavior like what?

    Emphasis on physical activity such as PE asnd recess is also being cut back. Boys need this activity moreso than girls to discharge excess energy and help them focus. Further many special programs exist for girls who may not be as good at things like math and science. Each of these are very subtle forms of discrimination that are designed to make schools very girls friendly, but boy hostile environments and to deny equal oppotunity and equal access to boys.

    They have sports teams boys can join, and some of those sports girls can't get involved in because there isn't a team for girls. The only sport girls really have is cheerleading, where their job is to support the boys playing sports, cheer them on when they do good, cheer them up when they do bad, inspire them to do better. Maybe there are many special programs for girls who may not be as good at things like math and science because they need it moreso than boys, to discharge excess mental energy.

    It results in higher graduation rates, better grades, and a greater liklihood for continuing to higher education for girls.Yet we blame boys, with the media calling them "slackers" or portraying them as troublemakers and cheaters when they become dissatisfied and disinterested in school.


    Like girls with sports and certain jobs in the workplace.

    It results in higher hire rates, better pay, and a greater liklihood for continuing to higher position for boys.Yet we blame girls, with the media calling them "too emotional" or portraying them as incompetent and weak when they become dissatisfied and disinterested in sports or the workplace.
  6. Posted by: Pankaj on 6/19/2010 4:32 PM
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    "Girls are naturally smarter than boys, ..."

    LOL! Really? At the same time you are going to claim that they were oppressed for a millennium by the "naturally dumber boys"? See! The problem with feminists is that there is no need for consistency within their own thoughts. Anything goes.. as long as it is loaded with misandry and favors some sort of feminist agenda.
  7. Posted by: Nate on 6/19/2010 5:53 PM
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    Girls are naturally smarter than boys, therefore the gap isn't caused by discrimination.


    You keep on saying this, but you're wrong.

    Men average 5 IQ points more than women.

    Your rebuttal is an emotional one "oh, that study is wrong".
    Well, show me another study that backs you up. You don't get to assert that the study is wrong and that women are in fact smarter.

    I'm not a feminist, so I need facts to be convinced.
  8. Posted by: Nate on 6/19/2010 6:00 PM
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    How does that oppress men? That means 60% are probably men, which is more than 40%. That's still unequal for women.


    You can't argue with people like bob. The feminism rose-tinted glasses cloud their judgement.

    To state, "equal outcomes equals equality" you need to make a lot of un-evidenced assumptions.

    For one, that men and women are inherently the same. fMRIs and numerous studies of gender-differences from childhood prove this to be false. So naturally some jobs will be male dominated. For example, manual labour will always be a male dominated profession. There is no discrimination there, no need for 40% female laws. Men are stronger and therefore more likely to do manual labour.

    Secondly, to make the argument "equal outcomes equals equality" you need to assume that women are socialised not to pursue certain careers. Again, to make this case you need more than anecdotes and assertions.

    The reality is, equality of opportunity is the only way to achieve equal outcomes. Rigging the outcome only achieves one person's uneducated idea of what an 'equal' outcome should be. Ergo, it is not equality as it is hinged upon the flawed assumptions I've just mentioned.
  9. Posted by: Mark on 6/20/2010 3:37 AM
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    Thank you bob for your eructational replies. Your cognitive dissonance is screaming so loud that I can hear it from here. I state a government-mandated difference in the treatment of men and women in retirement age and what do you say? "Women can't be topless.". Brilliant. Clearly the feminist cause has never been more needed, who needs your statist sexism when women can’t stroll around with their tits out. I hope that reply decreased the discomfort in your mind because you lost credibility with anyone with a shred of honesty.

    I talk about a lack of reproductive control and you fart out “condoms” (no capitalisation or punctuation either, thanks for the respect). How about if she takes that condom and inverts it inside herself and impregnates herself against the man’s will. Do you think he will get the control he deserves then? What about choice for men? What about if he wants to take responsibility for a child his girlfriend wants to abort? Clearly I didn’t mean any of that because I don’t know what a fucking condom is.

    Then we have this gem:

    How does that oppress men? That means 60% are probably men, which is more than 40%. That's still unequal for women.


    bob. You scare me. I’m not anti-MRA, I am anti totalitarian freaks who force their views on us all because of their sick worldview. I’m serious. If you cannot understand how cutting a perfectly qualified male candidate off at the knees because the place is mandated by the state for a woman who hasn’t tried as hard but is going to be used as a quota-filler isn’t sexist oppression then I don’t know what other evidence could convince you. It’s like reporting a murder and having the police stand astride the corpse saying “what dead body?”
  10. Posted by: Nate on 6/20/2010 3:42 AM
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    "Women can't be topless.".


    Men aren't stopping women from being topless. This seems to be in-house female oppression.
    I would gladly fight for their right to be topless bob, as well as nearly every other male I know.
  11. Posted by: TDOM on 6/20/2010 6:09 AM
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    Bob is obviously here just to agitate. His statements demonstrate far too much ignorance to serve any other purpose.

    Girls are naturally smarter than boys, therefore the gap isn't caused by discrimination.


    Studies of intelligence test results consistently show there is no significant difference in intelligence between males and females. The cognitive skills involved in reading favor girls early on , but boys catch up by the start of adolescence. The problem is that they have typically fallen well behind by that time. If there were an equal emphaisis on ensuring parity in reading and language for boys as there is in math for girls, there would be little difference by the time they enter high school.

    Like the gap between boys and girls when it comes to physical strength, there are no special programs to help close that.


    Girls have an advantage in fine motor skills and boys in gross motor skills at young ages. These gaps close as they approach adolescence. Unfortunately for girls, boys then begin to grow at a much faster rate. They end up bigger, stronger, and faster on average. No special program (short of genetic engineering) will ever close that gap.

    Normal boy behavior like what?


    Simply being physically active. Boys need to move around more than girls. Schools do not tolerate this need for activity and tend to punish it. The reduction or elimination of recess breaks throughout the day makes the problem worse.

    They have sports teams boys can join, and some of those sports girls can't get involved in because there isn't a team for girls. The only sport girls really have is cheerleading, where their job is to support the boys playing sports,


    This is laughable. Title IX requires equal expendature for girls sports. Even back in the 70s when I was in high school girls had field hockey, golf, basketball, volleyball, softball, tennis, and track. The major problem was getting enough of them to fill all the positions on the teams. Boys team had to cut players because there were so many who wanted to play, the girls volleyball team at my high school couldn't compete my junior and senior years because not enough would try out to field a team. In the 80s my former high school had to eliminate some boys teams to comply with Title IX because it couldn't recruit enough girls to play sports and eliminated girls teams due to lack of interest.

    Maybe there are many special programs for girls who may not be as good at things like math and science because they need it moreso than boys, to discharge excess mental energy.


    I have never seen a scientific study that suggests that girls have more mental energy or any greater need to discharge it.

    -TDOM
  12. Posted by: bob on 6/20/2010 6:31 AM
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    LOL! Really? At the same time you are going to claim that they were oppressed for a millennium by the "naturally dumber boys"?


    Naturally stronger boys. Look at men and boys in schools. When it comes to the nerds and the jocks, the nerds are usually smarter. But who abuses thier popularity, who beats up who? While the nerds are smarter than the jocks, the jocks physical advantage over the nerds still allow them to dominate.

    Well, show me another study that backs you up. You don't get to assert that the study is wrong and that women are in fact smarter.


    Are you saying that because men do better in one type of testing, that it's proff men are smarter. But all the other tests taken by men and women throughout their lives in school, in which women do better, is proff of nothing?

    Secondly, to make the argument "equal outcomes equals equality" you need to assume that women are socialised not to pursue certain careers. Again, to make this case you need more than anecdotes and assertions.


    In the videos on why men earn more, it said because of more hours. It also said that when it comes to unmarried and childless people, women earn more than men. But, when it comes to people who are married and have childdren, men earn more than women. So, unmarried and childless women put in more hours than unmarried and childless men I guess. But when people ask why men don't stay at home and take care of the children, the usual response is, "men earn more, so it makes more sense for men to stay in the workplace so the family's financial income will be higher". But according to the videos, that's not true, because women don't start earning less until after marriage and children. It actually makes more sense for women to stay in the workplace so the family's financial income will be higher. If women start out earning more than men, then in 10, 15, 20 years without having to leave or work less in the workplace, women will probably still be earning more than men.

    So why, why are women the ones pressured to put their careers, dreams, and everything they went to college for on the back burner if they want to have a family.

    Some people believe that oppression is wrong, but don't believe it's wrong to use subliminal messaging to the people's decision, therefore they willingly participate in said oppressive acts. Even though they know the only reason for the influence is to keep the oppressive and non-oppressive times as relative as possible.


  13. Posted by: bob on 6/20/2010 6:38 AM
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    Some people believe that oppression is wrong, but don't believe it's wrong to use subliminal messaging to influence people's decision, therefore they willingly participate in said oppressive acts. Even though they know the only reason for the influence is to keep the oppressive and non-oppressive times as relative as possible.

    This is what I meant to say in the last part.
  14. Posted by: bob on 6/20/2010 7:01 AM
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    @Mark

    Take them with you.

    @TDOM

    Think about girls in school when it's that time of the month, no matter how much they feel like they're sick, they don't get excused from school. That's something girls would need more than boys.

    @Nate

    That's because men in our society turned it in to something sexual.
  15. Posted by: Nate on 6/20/2010 1:35 PM
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    Some people believe that oppression is wrong, but don't believe it's wrong to use subliminal messaging to influence people's decision


    Subliminal messaging doesn't work, it's a proven failure.
    Numerous double-blind studies conducted by psychologists have conclusively proven that you cannot use subliminal suggestion to control behaviour.
  16. Posted by: Nate on 6/20/2010 1:38 PM
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    Are you saying that because men do better in one type of testing, that it's proff men are smarter. But all the other tests taken by men and women throughout their lives in school, in which women do better, is proff of nothing?


    I've argued with many dishonest people like you before bob.

    Just remember, that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed in the same way.
    So I dismiss your baseless assertion, and we're back to the fact that I have evidence that proves my point and you have no evidence; ergo, I am much more likely to be correct.
  17. Posted by: Pankaj on 6/20/2010 3:08 PM
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    "Naturally stronger boys..." (I will ignore the high school example as it shows how little "bob" knows about the real world or even high school for that matter.)

    If boys are naturally stronger (true) and they have the sort of adversarial relationship with females (false, unless you are a feminist) ... shouldn't all women be dead by now? LOL! Anyway, I didn't expect a coherent or rational response - but thanks for trying "bob" for trying to defend an idiotic idea... feminism, which apparently believes that men and women are equal, except that men will gather together and oppress women whereas women cannot possibly do something like that.
  18. Posted by: Mark on 6/20/2010 3:09 PM
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    @Mark

    Take them with you.


    What? I don't understand. I don't understant that sentence as a reply to the paragraphs I write in response to you. Yet another complete lack of respect for me by you and it marks the end of my attempts to reason with you or answer your dishonest questions. Your brain is full of garbage and you have terrible values and character, you labour under cognitive mechanisms that you will never see since feminism is your religion. I'm not wasting my time with you anymore.
  19. Posted by: aHuman on 6/20/2010 10:47 PM
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    @bob
    You seem to think violence is the predominant feature of men. You argue that men dominated women because of their strength and then you go on to argue that "bully" type men dominate "nerds" because they're stronger and the nerds are cleverer.

    So wrong.
    Do you really think great leaders in the past have only gotten there because they beat everyone else to pulp? I wonder if you're a woman posing as a man because that is the typical presumption of female feminists. They look at men and only see violence.

    The truth is great leaders needed to be intelligent and clever far more than physically strong. And this has been true for millennia.

  20. Posted by: Hzqi on 6/24/2010 1:40 AM
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    Bob, I'm not going to address the bulk of your crazed brain-dance.

    I'll address a mere two.

    You take about some nefarious subliminal programming and influence foisted upon women to dupe them into surrendering their careers and prizing motherhood at the expense of their ascension.

    Tell you what Bob. Since you seem to be arguing that Father's ought have a greater proportion of power and influence when it comes to children, maybe you could take that beef of yours to the steps of City Halls.

    When it comes to crunch time, to evaluate and re-evaluate who ought to be the primary caregivers of children, what do you think the choirs of the family sing out in almost absolute unity? WOMEN! It's a funny old world, Bob. I've heard this from the mouths of babes ad nauseum. In fact, I've been subjected to public shame for the mere inquiry of the matter, as to whether their needs to be a rethink in public policy, regarding who is a presumed default. You know who heads the charge to hiss me down, Bob? Women.

    Are these the same women, Bob, who then turn around and bemoan their responsibilities as an albatross? Hmmm, yeah, some; Most. Often, they're quite hostile about it both ways. Often without even realising that they are hostile, or contradicting themselves. If you ask some of them blank what policies they believe in fundamentally, and explain the differences, they may make wise choices. You put policy into action with real world scenarios, however, and watch the emotion take over policy-making.

    So what does a man make of a society, Bob, where women claw like wolverines to retain control of the very seat of the power they deny they have (Children) and then turn aroudn and complain that the seat of their power comes with a personal price tag?

    Also, Bob (Is that short for Roberta? Maybe?), when you assert simple number dynamics, you need to be inclusive of the "minority motivators" in numbers. Like the way that never-married women, by their own volition, are a minority in the work-force. It makes statistical sense from a level-pegging that they may be more representative in the higher-earning bracket. The very social dynamic that women insist on (see privious point) renders this minoritive status, and it is usually indicative of motivation. Take for example, nursing. I've heard many anecdotes that when people recieve a male nurse, they have a better experience. Postulating this as a truth, would it mean male nurses are better? Nay. It may be the motivation of the minority. Men aren't as usually drawn to the field as women, so the minoritive person who is, may be more highly driven by the pursuit, irrespective of gender. It's remarkable that you can think your way as far as rationalizing something with adjustment "like" the marriage status, but conveniently, you fail to assign adjustment rational to the areas you begrudge. Isn't surprizing however. Feminists are filled with convenient reasoning. Hell, even when girls were overtaking boys in the gynocratic education system they're subjected to, they were still spinning their malarky of feminine dismay. I bet they could even find a way today, to plead with you that the education system is hell-bent against them and we need more social programs to prop up their dwindling and precious self-esteem. Delusional victimhood knows no boundary, for the capacity to warp interpretation reigns over all.

    As for your quotas, Bob. I've known plenty of guys that I think might be interested in nursing. They've had enough of shovelling concrete, spreading bitumen and feeding furnaces. They aren't qualified for nursing, but I'm sure that's nothing that a mandatory 40% male nurses scenario couldn't fix. Right, Bob?
  21. Posted by: Hzqi on 6/24/2010 1:47 AM
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    *Forgiving my odd typo (prEvious. Their/there)

    I commend you Mark for having the moxy to be so forthright yet diplomatic in your dedication to this subject. Many people find the task of detangling the overwhelming influx of digressions, red herrings and general irrational bombardment to much to cope with. Upright and unwavering be thee.

    I really don't mind irrationality. It's just when it becomes thick, fast and hostile that it's a problem.
  22. Posted by: Hzqi on 6/24/2010 2:18 AM
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    Just one more thing Bob (I'll reread this one to reduce the incidence of typos).

    You seem to be bemoaning now, the sexualization of breasts. As Nate said, do you actually imagine any scale of mass-male opposition to this notion of yours? Be sure to divvy up your sources and we can all fascinate over the results. Also, this is another source of female power. They have no qualms about exploiting it. Are men oppressed now, Bob, because women ante up to them in a bar, with their white-pointers on high-alert and manage to (SCOFF!) dupe him out of a drink? Are the breasts a problem when they're for your (You do have them, right Bob?) gain? Or just when they're a burden. Wait, burden? When exactly ARE they a burden? Oh right, when you want to take your shirt off.

    Well hell, Bob, we'll put it to a vote. All those in favour of women walking around topless, say Aye!

    All those predicting that it will be chalked up to male oppression when road accidents skyrocket, say Aye!

    You like to speak of violence Bob, but you seem a little uneducated about the "let's you and him fight" game. You seem to be operating under the self-inflicted deception that women aren't either participants (they are) or heavily accountable in the incitement of a heavy amount of male violence (they are). Tell you a story I saw one night, Bob. You only have my word that it's true, however... It is. A group of guys and a group of gals at a bar. The gals make their way to the bar and chat up an assortment of guys at the bar, after a while they each manage to flirt their way into the purchase of a drink (But social dynamic only inflict roles on women, right Bob?). Here's the cute part. They then politely excuse themselves and wander back to join the other group of guys, WITH their drinks. How many scenarios can you conjur up playing out from this Bob? Should the hostility be directed at the girls, or at the guys? How many presumptions can be made? Did the guys (sitting there going WTF are you doing?!?) put them up to it? Were they miss innocent, oblivious to the trouble they were inciting? That wouldn't speak too kindly of sense, would it? Did they do it on purpose? That wouldn't speak too kindly of ethics, would it? While men predominate same-gender violence, they tend to not be involved in secondary incitement. That's merely the male thing most of the time, to deal with it yourself. If a fight broke out in that bar, who do you think would have been tied up in the fighting, Bob? It's funny that you women (You are a woman, right Bob?) choose precious times to proclaim your oppositions. If the guys from the bar came over and attacked the girls, and the guys in the group did nothing to protect them from trouble they caused, what would you consider the guys in the group to be Bob? You know, if they didn't fight to protect you; Just hypothetically. There isn't much more than the assignment of standards, and if you think women are subjected to them all, and men are subjected to none (on both counts via evolved participations) then I can't say mich for your powers of deduction or objectivity.

    So would you take the likelihood of working in a loathesome, laborious operation until you're 65, being expected to pick up cheques and defend honor, or periods with options, family control, and another 6 years tacked on your life, Bob? I mean, if I was to join in the abdurdist reductionist game, you know?
  23. Posted by: bob on 6/24/2010 3:43 AM
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    Do any of you know what my point is? I've had people in the past jump in to some of my discussions, not knowing what my point is. Therefore, they start arguing with me against a point that's not even mine, or they don't argue against my point.

    @Mark

    Take the condoms.
  24. Posted by: goLookGoRead on 6/24/2010 3:41 PM
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    This is an interesting and to me, a valid question - how do feminists oppress men? Combined with how the second wave of feminist ideas have been allowed to influence some aspects of governmental and legal process in order to gain something at the expense of genuine equality.

    Birth or birth control: This is a difficult problem because quite rightly the law needs to protect the rights of the child above the rights of the mother or the father. Maybe a legally binding contract where a natural mother would agree to be a 'surrogate' in favour of the wishes of the natural father? I quite like what Gerry Hall and Mick Jagger have done to guarantee mutual access, they moved into separate houses next door to each other. I quite like the idea that their children get to decide for themselves when to come and go from either house and each parent being close by. Could such an idea be a solution?

    Unequal pensionable age: I always thought it unfair that women lost out on five years' worth of pension contributions simply because they were forced to retire five years before men did. Either reduce the retirement age for men, or increase the retirement for women. On average, women live longer than men after retirement age, so the fact that the government intends to ban a specific retirement age is probably the solution to this unfair situation.

    About more women in boardrooms: Maybe positive discrimination should happen provided the women met the qualifying criteria for the job, and not simply gender bias.

    I read a few books on feminism many years ago (1980s). It was/is my antagonism to political correctness which started it. Without going into the finer details, I decided that I should read some books about Masculinities - it then was an emerging kind of academic writing. In Masculinities, it seemed to me, men were choosing to write in a similar style to feminists' writings, to reflect their own feelings and truths - their intention was to eventually find their own voice on the gender issues affecting them.

    For me it was humbling to read about the genuine pain and the very honest feelings of oppression being expressed by these men, about issues close to their heart. I had not read anything like that before, [I'll make a point of finding one of the titles so that I can quote it properly another day, I can't reach them just now]. I would recommend to other women who are reading about feminism to also read about Masculinities, because it does raise an essential perspective on many common gender issues affecting men. Maybe Masculinities has evolved into something else now, twenty years later.
  25. Posted by: I_Love_Women on 7/14/2010 4:09 PM
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    Oh my. I don't know what planet you guys are from, but I seriously don't understand most of the assertions made here with regard to feminism and gender issues. On MY planet, I have many feminist female friends and many non-feminist female friends. I have never felt personally oppressed or bashed by any of them. I HAVE had many very interesting and enlightening conversations with my feminist friends. We agree on most things and disagree on some things—just to keep life interesting!
    In terms of oppression, I've heard numerous first-hand accounts from my female friends of times when they've been molested/harassed (i.e. a guy grabbed her breast or her ass on a public bus), or they've been on the receiving end of rude/crass/sexually explicit comments from men simply when they're walking down the street—on more than one occasion, this has happened even when I was with them!
    When I was in college, I took several women's studies courses—and not surprisingly, I was one of only a couple men in those classes. About half-way through the semester, after one of the classes, my professor, a very expressive, strong-willed woman, stopped me in the hallway and asked me what I thought of the class. I told her that I thought it was very interesting, and that I was learning a lot. She said, "Good, because I was concerned, because you haven't spoken up very much in class." I replied that because I was a male, and this was a women's studies class, I should probably let the women have their say. Her response to me was, "You are a member of this class, and what you think and feel is important, regardless of your gender. So, I want you to speak up in class." That was a rather nice surprise!
    I get the impression that there's a sense on this site, that feminists are out to get men and essentially emasculate them (figuratively, and possibly even literally). Again, that's not been my experience. Most feminists I know love men. Most have boyfriends or husbands. Sure, there are probably some "penis-hating" feminists, but I rarely ever cross paths with them, if ever. In fact, I haven't found that I've somehow needed to change my behavior or my language when I'm around feminists for fear of their wrath. On the contrary, they're perfectly happy with me just being myself. As I said earlier, they may not agree with everything I do or say, but they're usually flexible enough to let most things slide.
    I'm sorry for any guys here who've had bad experiences with women. Maybe I've just been REALLY, REALLY lucky! I love women, and it seems, they love me back! :-)
  26. Posted by: Schadenfreudian on 2/16/2011 8:47 AM
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    Where to start...

    I also enjoy the company of women, but have learned that to keep everything "friendly." To do otherwise, in my opinion (which I apply only to me), is incurring an emotional, financial and--believe it or not--physical risk.

    I realized about a decade ago that when I married my wife, I really married two partners: one was my wife, and the other, the federal/state government was a silent partner whose part of the contract became enacted upon dissolution of the contract. This appears to be an issue so many men and women, especially women, are pathologically blind to. To me, THIS is the reason more than any other that causes contemporary males--ESPECIALLY ENGLISH-SPEAKING--to balk when considering proposing marriage to their current girlfriend.

    Further, in an extremely cynical and cruel judgment against men, there are conditions in the Violence Against Women Act (VAWA) that makes contacting and dating foreign-national (non-English-speaking) women a legal nightmare. Where did our governments receive a mandate to interfere with male-female relationships? Certainly not from ordinary people, I would wager. Most likely, their mandate came from an extremely powerful, Machiavellian political faction that used vocalized and non-verbal threats against lawmakers who would not make dating non-English-speaking women a near-crime.

    Alright, so it's still possible to move overseas, find and date women who don't resort to such extremes to protect their turf, but what of men who prefer to live in their English-speaking nation? What choices do we now have?

    1. Marry in a system with a dreadful history of financially punishing, excoriating, and portraying men as wannabe rapists, philanderers and a panoply of perverse pursuits...and risk losing her, the home, the bank account, and, in general, freedom.
    2. Date foreign women, but by bringing them into their home nations, risk having those women turn into the same women that are turning men away. I have heard so many stories attesting to this it convinces me that all women are essentially identical with the only difference being "style."
    3. Date and marry foreign women and move to their nations to live together in that culture (I think this is a winner)...as long as it's not an English-speaking or Nordic nation.
    4. Get married and live separately--this has a lot of merit, except it never flies in cultures of possessiveness marriage. This would probably succeed in Europe or, say, Brazil, but not very often.
    5. Don't marry.

    It seems that a lot of men are choosing #5, but don't like the fact that they have to resort to this means to preserve aspects of their lives they choose not to surrender to women or governments.
  27. Posted by: Mark on 2/27/2011 9:03 PM
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    @Schadenfreudian
    Good way to frame the issue. When you do marry you are getting into a contract, and a serious one at that. Upon the dissolution of that contract there are numerous ways that the government, which is the friend to no man, to mess with your life.
  28. Posted by: ChrisD on 5/14/2011 3:50 PM
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    "Most feminists I know love men." Good one! Hilarious! What's next? "Nazi's love Jews?!?!"

    Most misogynists are attracted to women and may be married. That doesn't take away their misogyny. They still hate women and that is reflected in their attitudes. It's exactly the same with feminists. They may be heterosexual but their anti-male attitudes and outlooks shows their misandry.

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The umbrella in particular is remembered as the symbol of the nineteenth century’s disturbing obsession with individualism. In Bellamy’s utopia, umbrellas have been replaced with retractable canopies so that everyone is protected from the rain equally.
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