Rape is equality? What?! These are not the MRA’s you’re looking for.

From P.Z. Myers blog, pharyngula. I get this article by some guy called Eivind Berge (case in point, this is why anonymity might be a good idea on the internet), called “Rape is equality”.

Maybe it’s a clever title, right? I have planned many videos with risqué titles that explained what they mean later on. Not here though, he is literally proposing that “feminist countries such as Norway stop thinking of rape as wrong.”. Lovely.

When men have something women have less of, such as money or power, women simply take it by force. It's called affirmative action and feminists believe it's right. I am not going to argue against that. I accept that as a lost cause. So instead I am going to embrace forced equality and demand it for men as well.

So let us give women equality if that's what they really want. Remember that due to the hypergamous nature of women, men get less sex as women get more money and power. Women are generally incapable of feeling attraction for men who are not better than they are, and soon men are no better than equal. So it is about time men in feminist countries such as Norway stop thinking of rape as wrong.

I don’t know who this guy is, and anyone can blog, but I don’t know how anyone claiming to be a libertarian can hold such views. Also, it seems that Berge is using feminist-inspired thinking here, as opposed to libertarian thinking. The idea that we force, through the apparatus of law, the equality of groups who have perceived "”slights” above or below another, is leftist. The fact that this is not a libertarian position in any way is not going to be mentioned by Myers who has a rather fairytale image of what libertarianism actually is. This from a man who doesn’t like the subtleties of atheism passing the religious nuts by. Oh the irony!

That said, he just appears to be some berk on the internet, any reason to take thus guy seriously? Nope.

Despite this, such a juicy bit of material isn’t going to slip by Myers as he makes this statement:

What do women have that men don't? Vaginas. So poor pathetic Eivend Berge is asserting his right to rape. He's quite open about it: "it is about time men in feminist countries such as Norway stop thinking of rape as wrong" and "Rape is equality." You'll find his type is fairly common among a group who call themselves "Men's Rights" proponents, where Men's Right seems to be to maintain economic and social inequities that benefit them.

“You'll find his type is fairly common among a group who call themselves "Men's Rights" proponents”. If by “his type” you mean people who advocate rape then no, this is the first time I can remember seeing something like this. I can't hope to be as big an expert on the M.R.M. as P.Z. Myers is so I just hope that the next time he makes a calumny like that, he provides some evidence to back it up.

However, if by “his type” you mean the general misogynist woman hater label that leftists utter as commonly as the word “the”, then you will find a lot of those in the Men’s Rights Movement; if your principle source of information is blogs.

P.Z. Do you want me to trawl the feminists blogs and bring up some of the things they say? I don’t fancy the proposition very much and since we know what you would say, it would be a fruitless exercise. How about the feminist nuts who want the extermination of men? How about those who make biologically ignorant statements about men being parasites (literally) or about men being “an accident”. Do those positions say much about the broader movement of feminism? It depends. If the broader movement also has leaders who parrot those views or teach them in universities or use them to pass legislation then yes, otherwise no.

How many times do I have to keeps saying this? It matters not what kinds of nuts you can find and link to a movement. Unless the normative movement they stand behind can be show to support those views, then you cannot parlay the views of the nuts into anything larger unless you’re a demagogue who doesn’t care about the laws of logic being applied in unpartisan ways.

About this claim:

I'm afraid he needs to learn that legal corrections to a long and ongoing history of economic oppression of women are fair and just,

I’m sorry. Am I allowed to disagree? Or is it just a case of me being not being learned enough? (can you say gulag?). Yes there is one and only once acceptable view, and that is that coercive fiddling and quotas by the apparatus of coercion, government, is fair and just. Disagree, and expect the standard name-shower by the left. Racist, Sexist, Homophone, Xenophobe, etc.

What I love about “legal corrections” is that it is never suggested when these legal correction must stop. At what point do we stop “correcting” for women? When they’ve achieved equality perhaps? What kind? Literal or opportunity? Also, how about the boys falling behind at university? Do we roll back female privilege in university programs and admissions? They’d rather die.

Also, how about the philosophical point that a “legal correction” is sexism by the very definition of the word. In that, it requires the recognition of a candidate’s sex and the hard-coded rule of the land to dole out benefits according to that sex. Sexism pure and simple.

Would people who hate sexism so much actually use it so freely? Leftists don’t have sexism, but instead love victim theology and the politically correct Marx-based view of a society of battling oppressed groups who need the re-distribution of power amongst them.

In a battle for who disgusts me the most. Berge wins hands-down.

Posted on: Sunday, May 30, 2010 7:42 AM
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Comments

  1. Posted by: Eivind Berge on 5/31/2010 4:05 AM
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    You are right: I was using feminist-inspired, leftist thinking, as opposed to libertarian thinking. But I am a libertarian at heart. I was trying to show where it would lead if men adopted the kind of thinking feminists use to our own ends, exposing the hypocrisy of applying "legal corrections" to women only. I don't actually support legal corrections for either sex. Think of it as a reductio-ad-absurdum argument against affirmative action.
  2. Posted by: ArgusEyes on 5/31/2010 6:26 AM
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    Hello Eivind, I didn't expect you to respond so quickly, if at all.

    So you're saying that your post was a parody? That you in no way meant what you made it seem like you wanted? Well, if that's the case then I certainly take back my bile. However, it didn't even occur to P.Z. Myers or me that you were kidding and unlike professor Myers, I try not to fall into the trap of thinking the worse of people.

    I must say then that it was not particularly good writing on your part. Unless I missed the tell-tale sign or giveaway then I don't think you covered the parody take of your post enough.

    Mark
  3. Posted by: Eivind Berge on 5/31/2010 9:42 AM
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    Oh, I mean it all right, but only as long as women have their forcible equality. I am still a libertarian.
  4. Posted by: ArgusEyes on 5/31/2010 12:16 PM
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    "Oh, I mean it all right"

    Really? Then I reinstate my aforementioned bile. I wanted to understand your thinking a little more and looked at some of the comments you made on your original blog post. This one seemed to summarise quite well.

    "You don't get it. I am the male response to feminism. I would never have believed rape is morally legitimate without feminism."

    So feminism comes along and you drop your moral sense? Because they are reprehensible then you want the right to ape their behaviour? Then you never had a strong moral sense in the first place. When "we can do it too" becomes an acceptable response to villains then what happens? Both parties circle the drain in ever-ascending hatred. Keying off one another to legitimise their own increasing bigotry.

    Slap yourself in the face and wake up man. If rape is morally reprehensible then it’s morally reprehensible, don’t use feminists as an excuse to debase yourself. There are wiser teachers out there.
  5. Posted by: tiredofitall on 6/2/2010 1:29 AM
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    "So let us give women equality if that's what they really want."

    I agree with this sentiment 100%. BUt to be honest it'd never work.

    Women really only want equality when it suits them, any other time they happily play to the "I'm just a girl" ploy.

  6. Posted by: TDOM on 6/2/2010 2:59 AM
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    Hi Mark,

    When I read this this morning, I wasn't sure how to respond. I'm still not. But I feel compelled to say something. I'm not certain who disgusts me more, Berge or Myers. Certainly what Berge advocates disgusts me more, but Myers response denigrates an entire movement and helps to perpetuate negative stereotypes that are quite harmful to all men.

    Your response to Myers should suffice. It is not fair to characterize an entire movement by the lunatic fringe. The feminist movement has earned the characterization oif a hate movement by doing the very things you say. It's leaders have published a good many books and articles containing misandrous statements and they have taught misandry in colleges and universities and used misandrous lies and deceit to influence public policy. The men's movement (if there is one) has not done the same and many of the more prominent MRAs have spoken against those who advocate misogyny.

    As for Berge, his argument is illogical and just plain barbaric. There may be a time when an immoral act can be acceptable (such as killing in time of war), but I can't think of any time this would apply to rape. It also does nothing to equalize the wrongs of affirmative action. Sexual selection in the human species has always been the perview of women. Men are the pursuers and women are the choosers, its a matter of biology. Due to her limited capacity for reproduction, a woman must choose her mate wisely. Since women have entered the workforce, many have come to believe that a mate is unnecessary. Such is their perogative. This does not justify the barbaric practice of rape. It has no place in a civilized society.

    I have no problem with equality between the sexes. Equal rights, equal access, equal opportunity, and equal protection of law are things I believe in when it comes to the rights of individual citizens. I believe that at times, equality can be measured in outcomes, but that in general, outcomes can be deceiving and therefore should only be used with caution. I also believe that affirmative action can be an effective short-term solution while a more long-term solution is being implemented. But it does need to be strictly monitored and time-limited. Historically, it has been neither and instead has become legalized discrimination against white males.

    Misandrous stereotypes have no place in society and neither does rape.

    -TDOM
  7. Posted by: Noobius on 6/2/2010 8:03 AM
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    I propose that every time some nut suggests something like this we refer to him/her/it as jessica valenti. It's probably just some feminist trying to make MRAs look like rape supporters.
  8. Posted by: ArgusEyes on 6/2/2010 8:41 AM
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    "I propose that every time some nut suggests something like this we refer to him/her/it as jessica valenti. It's probably just some feminist trying to make MRAs look like rape supporters."

    I disagree. To simply assume that it is a feminist trying to make MRA's look bad would be to support an unsubstantiated version of reality that we want to believe just because we don't want to consider that people on our side are bad too. The feminists do this when all criticisms are boiled down to "mysoginists". We are better than that.
  9. Posted by: Noobius on 6/3/2010 2:15 PM
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    @ArgusEyes

    Fair point.
  10. Posted by: Nate on 6/4/2010 7:37 AM
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    "I disagree. To simply assume that it is a feminist trying to make MRA's look bad would be to support an unsubstantiated version of reality that we want to believe just because we don't want to consider that people on our side are bad too. The feminists do this when all criticisms are boiled down to "mysoginists". We are better than that."

    _______________


    Well put!

    I can't begin to tell you how much I hate this tactic, especially in the hands of feminists. It is so intellectually dishonest to the point of being an affront to our cognitive abilities.

    Say to a feminist something along the lines of; "I think women have it easier than men because of affirmative action and the assumption that they weaker than men in all areas" then they will usually build a straw-man against you along the lines of "you hate women" or "you want to preserve male-privilege". And they do this instead of engaging in an honest conversation.

    We cannot allow ourselves to simply demonise and misrepresent our opposition. It's a cheap way out of having to think about and justify our existence as campaigners for equality.

    And bravo Argus for publicly denouncing this clown. If only mainstream feminists would publicly denounce their crazies who call for things like sterilisation and male birth quotas; instead of remaining silent - which to me, kind of implies tacit sympathy with their position.
  11. Posted by: ArgusEyes on 6/6/2010 3:23 PM
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    "And bravo Argus for publicly denouncing this clown. If only mainstream feminists would publicly denounce their crazies who call for things like sterilisation and male birth quotas; instead of remaining silent - which to me, kind of implies tacit sympathy with their position."

    Integrity means a lot to me. I am glad he showed up here to clarify his views but I did want him to continue doing so after my last reply to him.
  12. Posted by: Otoki on 6/6/2010 4:44 PM
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    I don't get it. You seem to be stuck on some weird second-wave version of feminism, and many of your readers seem to think that "feminism" means "misandry". Do you guys just not like to read the blogs and opinions of third-wave feminists? Are men who are self-labeled feminists man-haters?

    If you are against feminism, what rights do you support for women? I'm not being snarky, I seriously want to know so I can understand where you're coming from.

    You obviously support women's right to physical autonomy and safety (since you think rape is immoral). How about voting? Owning property?

    I understand that affirmative action for any group is a touchy subject, and I, for one, am glad you don't think rape (or any sort of physical harm towards women) is a positive solution for it. Do you not support affirmative action in any case?

    Then, there's your comments about the MRA's and how Berge's position is not representative and there are no other people out there supporting such drivel. Well, just go to Berge's blog on the subject, and read the comments. There are at least five people posting there who feel that rape is, in fact, acceptable "retribution".

    Then, of course, there's the definition of rape, which according to Berge consists of a woman physically fighting tooth and nail (despite the risk of being further beaten or murdered) for her sexual assault to be considered "forceful" enough to be a rape. Do you feel that penetrating an orifice of a vocally unwilling person is rape? If not, what is the "proper" resistance before it is considered rape?
  13. Posted by: Otoki on 6/6/2010 4:48 PM
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    Oh, also, you'll probably laugh (or cry) if you read Berge's comments in his blog post, in which he keeps claiming to be a libertarian while opposing all sorts of personal freedoms and autonomy, including supporting rape and opposing abortion. Epic.
  14. Posted by: Nate on 6/6/2010 5:01 PM
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    "If you are against feminism, what rights do you support for women? I'm not being snarky, I seriously want to know so I can understand where you're coming from. You obviously support women's right to physical autonomy and safety (since you think rape is immoral). How about voting? Owning property?"
    ---

    We support equal rights for women; we don't even want to draw institutional distinction between men and women. We want women to be judged by their merit. We want women to have all the same opportunities as what guys have and vice-versa. We want a level-playing field.

    What we do not want; is women going to the same schools, sitting in the same class, with the same teachers and getting into uni with half the required marks over boys thanks to feminist indoctrination that women somehow have it harder growing up.
    What feminism advocates is victimhood; and through this misrepresentation they achieve discrimination against men.

    _____________________________________

    "I understand that affirmative action for any group is a touchy subject, and I, for one, am glad you don't think rape (or any sort of physical harm towards women) is a positive solution for it. Do you not support affirmative action in any case?"
    ---

    I am glad you don't club seals, it's good to know :).

    Here is the problem with affirmative action for women.
    Feminists tell us that women are socialised to be domestics, therefore they forego career (and salary) to have a family that they probably do not want as much as they think they do. Meanwhile, men are out making more money as they are not socialised in this manner. What feminist neglect to mention, the corollary of their statement, is that men are socialised to be workers.

    The principal argument for "pay-gap" legislation is the socialisation of women to be domestics. Yet, on this rationale, men must be remunerated for their socialisation as 'providers'. Feminists aren't fighting for that however. They only recognise the socialisation on women, they only fight for remuneration for the socialisation of women.

    Furthermore, this socialisation very well could not exist or be as bad as feminists say it is.
    Feminists just assert this socialisation exists and provide little evidence to justify it.

    I have much, much more to say on this subject (the pay-gap, affirmative action and more), and if you're interested I'd like to continue? ... but it's 1am here.

    In fact, If you like we could set-up throw-away email accounts and feel our way through some topics and give the results to Argus to publish (if he's interested)?

  15. Posted by: TDOM on 6/6/2010 11:12 PM
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    @ Otoki

    "I don't get it. You seem to be stuck on some weird second-wave version of feminism, and many of your readers seem to think that "feminism" means "misandry". Do you guys just not like to read the blogs and opinions of third-wave feminists?"

    All feminism, not just second wave feminsim, is based on misanry. On the surface, it purports to be about equal rights and there's nothing wrong with that. but look a little deeper. It proclaims that women have been historical victims of partriarchal oppression. Men are evil oppressors and women are their victims. Some feminists wish to claim that "not all feminists believe...", but they seldom speak out in any meaningful way against misandry. It is far more common to hear leading feminists support misandry of the worst kind and even give support to women who commit violence against men. The National Organization for Women (NOW) and Robin Morgan (editor of Ms Magazine) were quite vocal in their support for Valerie Solanas after she was found guilty of the attemped murder of Andy Warhol. They hailed Solanas as a feminist heroine. Solanas was the author of one of the most vile anti-male works ever, The Scum Manifesto (follow this link to read it: http://thedamnedoldeman.com/?page_id=371). This is why it is important that those of us who speak in favor of men's rights speak out against those (like Berge) who advocate misogyny.


    "If you are against feminism, what rights do you support for women? I'm not being snarky, I seriously want to know so I can understand where you're coming from."

    I, for one, support equal rights, equal opportunity, and equal protection for all men and women. Go to http://thedamnedoldeman.com to see what I support.

    -TDOM
  16. Posted by: Otoki on 6/7/2010 9:38 PM
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    For the poster who believes that all Feminism is rooted in misandry and that there is no strong Feminist opposition to misandry, we're speaking in two totally different realities, so I don't think we can keep discussing that. What I've seen and learned as a Feminist is so far removed from what you're describing that I can only think we won't see eye to eye on that topic.

    @Nate
    If you want to continue the discussion that's fine, but I really get exhausted arguing about what Feminism does and does not represent now. Really, I came in here because I want to understand what Mark believes is representative of MRA's.

    Backstory: I've met several MRA's in person, and most of them were aspiring PUA's as well. While some of the things they said about power balance between women and men made sense in certain contexts, much of their philosophy seemed rooted in this idea that women were concepts rather than people. Does that make sense? They were a goal to be attained, or a challenge to be overcome.

    The school of Feminism in which I was raised was about rejecting blanket statements about vague terms like "patriarchy" and really examining the issue of privilege, which is something everyone has in differen aspects of their life, and lacks in others. It is about figuring out how and why certain people or demographics are being systemically or subconsciously (on a social level) held back or given extra obstacles to reach the same place of "success" as others. It has less to do with affirmative action (which I do support in certain instances) and more to do with "what is wrong with the school system in this neighborhood which results in such a low graduation rate?" "Why are so few POC/women hired in specific industries when they are strongly represented as applicants?"

    The tendency to give simplistic, easy answers to these questions is a typical characteristic of many theoretical disciplines, but GOOD theory (which sounds oxymoronic, but whatever) is about trying to asnwer those questions as complexly and honestly as possible, so that a solution can be found.

    I would also like, once again, to ask my question about the definition of rape. One thing I really despise with the MRA's I've met is their insistence on the prevalence of "fake rape" charges, and this idea that rape has to involve a fully conscious, fighting victim to be rape. As someone who has more female friends who have gone through rape than not, this is one of the concepts which prevents me from taking MRA's remotely seriously, because I truly think that having such a belief proves a level of apathy towards rape victims' physical and sexual autonomy.
  17. Posted by: Otoki on 6/7/2010 9:41 PM
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    In other words, I would like to know what is and is not rape according to the MRA philosophy as you guys understand it.
  18. Posted by: Nate on 6/8/2010 3:30 AM
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    @Otoki


    "If you want to continue the discussion that's fine, but I really get exhausted arguing about what Feminism does and does not represent now. Really, I came in here because I want to understand what Mark believes is representative of MRA's."

    -----

    Okay, a debate for another day perhaps.
    And thank you for your reply and taking the time to explain your philosophy to me.



    _____

    "Backstory: I've met several MRA's in person, and most of them were aspiring PUA's as well. While some of the things they said about power balance between women and men made sense in certain contexts, much of their philosophy seemed rooted in this idea that women were concepts rather than people. Does that make sense? They were a goal to be attained, or a challenge to be overcome."

    -----

    MRA's ≠ PUAs any more than Feminists = Communists.
    The two are mutually exclusive, and it's naïve to conclude based on your narrow sample size that these men are representative of the greater Men's Rights movement.


    "The school of Feminism in which I was raised was about rejecting blanket statements about vague terms like "patriarchy" and really examining the issue of privilege, which is something everyone has in differen aspects of their life, and lacks in others. It is about figuring out how and why certain people or demographics are being systemically or subconsciously (on a social level) held back or given extra obstacles to reach the same place of "success" as others."


    I can't speak for other MRAs, but I do not believe that male-privilege exists to the extent that many feminists suggest it does. That's not to say that I don't believe certain things are easier in life because I'm male, where were I to be female it would not be so easy. However, I also think the reverse is true, some things in life are easier because someone is female, instead of male.

    MRAs also tend to reject the notion that the wage-gap is a product of male-privilege. We have a good body of evidence behind us as well. We tend to resent the feminist assertion that the wage-gap exists because of socialisation of women as domestics and "male-privilege" in the work-force.

    I also reject the notion that male-privilege is greater than female-privilege (in the Western world). I just think the privileges we get are different.

    However, here is where I agree with feminists. Privilege shouldn't exist at all; people should be judged by the content of their character, their abilities and skills. Not on pre-conceived gender/racial/age/height/weight/disability/etc concepts.




    _____


    "It has less to do with affirmative action (which I do support in certain instances) and more to do with "what is wrong with the school system in this neighborhood which results in such a low graduation rate?" "Why are so few POC/women hired in specific industries when they are strongly represented as applicants?""


    -----


    MRAs tend to never support affirmative action; simply because it is often implemented on ill-conceived conclusions. For example, in my home country of Australia, girls can get into civil engineering with a grade of 60%, boys need a grade of 88%. On top of that; girls get their own tutors, own computers and full tuition paid. This is because feminists here decided that male-privilege was keeping girls out of engineering. Well, they were wrong. Even after years of guided programs for maths for girls in school, easier entry to civil engineering at uni, girls still are only 2% of all graduates. Ergo, male-privilege wasn't keeping girls down. But rather girls simply didn't want to be civil-engineers - therefore this programme was a waste of time and money and cost some boys a place at uni they actually earned (whereas the girls were gifted it because of their gender, i.e. not equality, sexism).

    Affirmative action, in this case (and most cases) is nothing but prejudice against one group. In the civil engineering example; it's institutionalised sexism against boys. Yet no-one will admit this because of the conditioning feminism has put on society; in that merely questioning feminism is considered sexist. Which is part of the reason I reject feminism as a vehicle for equality. I want a new movement run by men and women with a gender inclusive name and agenda.

    So just to wrap it up. I am against affirmative action always; where feminist think it's needed - they are often wrong because the differences aren't usually due to male-privilege but other factors they ignore.
    Where differences do exist due to some kind of favouritism, I still don't support affirmative action. I support levelling-the-playing-field so all people get an equal opportunity to get in based on their merit; not merely because they have a vagina, dark skin pigment etc.




    ______



    "The tendency to give simplistic, easy answers to these questions is a typical characteristic of many theoretical disciplines, but GOOD theory (which sounds oxymoronic, but whatever) is about trying to asnwer those questions as complexly and honestly as possible, so that a solution can be found."


    -----

    I agree. However, as I said above. I don't think feminism has found good working theories. Many feminists still believe the pay-gap is due to women being socialised as subservient domestics, whilst men go out and earn big in private men's clubs. It's a naïve view, a conspiracy theory - not much unlike the view the moon-landing never happened.





    _______



    "I would also like, once again, to ask my question about the definition of rape. One thing I really despise with the MRA's I've met is their insistence on the prevalence of "fake rape" charges, and this idea that rape has to involve a fully conscious, fighting victim to be rape. As someone who has more female friends who have gone through rape than not, this is one of the concepts which prevents me from taking MRA's remotely seriously, because I truly think that having such a belief proves a level of apathy towards rape victims' physical and sexual autonomy."

    -----


    Let me state this, some MRAs. SOME. Hold the view that rape has to be, as you said, "involv[ing] a fully conscious, fighting victim to be rape".
    Most do not agree. For example, date-rape (intentionally getting her drunk/drugged-up to sleep with her) is rape in my books and it's disgusting. A minority of 'fringe' MRAs will to argue that she should have not got drunk, but I would argue - getting someone drunk with the intention of having sex with them later when you know, sober, they wouldn't consent.. is rape.

    However, a woman having sex with a guy and regretting it, is not rape. A woman who is sober and has sex with a guy and doesn't enjoy it and is screaming in her head for it to stop, that's not rape.
    Most feminists seem to think it is, but they're wrong. They act like men in these situations somehow have to read their minds and know to stop. If women like in these cases don't speak up, they've only themselves to blame.

    I just want to talk a little bit about what you called 'fake rape':

    Firstly, MRAs acknowledge false-rape accusation exist. They do, there is no denying it.
    However, many feminists seem to think that once a woman accuses a man of rape, he is a rapist. All MRAs advocate is the implementation of human-rights and standard legal practice - innocent until proven guilty. Feminists seem to think that the mere accusation is enough to convict a rapist.
    They also seem to think the police shouldn't be free to question the allegedly raped woman, because it might upset her. Even if their are holes in her story. In other words, they'd rather lock-up the odd innocent guy than have a woman slightly inconvenienced by a question.


    As to the definition of rape, I would use this one:

    Rape is the act of forceful sex, sex without consent or sex where consent was first given, but continued after the point the consent was reneged.



    I hope these answer your questions. If you have more, please ask away.

    And again, thanks for replying.




  19. Posted by: ArgusEyes on 6/8/2010 3:38 PM
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    Hello Otoki. I started to write an answer on the definition of rape but it's started to span two pages with no end in sight. I prefer to write up arguments like this as videos so if you email me (top of the page) with your email address then I'll try to let you know when I make the video.
  20. Posted by: bob on 6/8/2010 4:04 PM
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    There are MRA men that think rape is equality? Sounds like Feminist women aren't the only ones who get to EMOTIONAL.
  21. Posted by: Nate on 6/8/2010 4:23 PM
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    @bob

    What? To whom are you replying and what aspect of their post particularly?

    ----QUOTE----
    There are MRA men that think rape is equality? Sounds like Feminist women aren't the only ones who get to EMOTIONAL.


    That whacko Eivind thinks rape = equality, he isn't really a MRA.
    Were he to stand amongst his peers and recite content from his blog; he would be rejected, shamed and disavowed.
  22. Posted by: Nate on 6/8/2010 4:26 PM
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    @Argus

    Hi Argus,
    What are the odds of getting some blockquote, bold, italics etc in here?


  23. Posted by: TDOM on 6/8/2010 7:07 PM
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    @ Otoki

    "For the poster who believes that all Feminism is rooted in misandry and that there is no strong Feminist opposition to misandry, we're speaking in two totally different realities, so I don't think we can keep discussing that. What I've seen and learned as a Feminist is so far removed from what you're describing that I can only think we won't see eye to eye on that topic."

    I am well aware of the many "brands" of feminism. You spoke of third wave feminsim in an earlier post. This particular brand is quite ill-defined and ambiguous. While there is a noticable toning down of the misandrous rhetoric, it does not reject it entirely. Your own comments about "privilege" are rooted in the concept of male oppression of women. this is the brand of feminism that brought us "women's empowerment" the achievement of which almost always includes overcoming or defeating a man, rather than success in one's own right. It has also demonstrated very little success in reigning in the rampant misandry of other brands of feminism.

    I am also aware that many "third wave feminists" reject the term "feminist" due to its negative connotations. I can accept this rejection if their position also rejects the misandry of feminism as well as its gender specificity. But I can accept it, because then it really is no longer feminism.

    For example, you ask the question "what is wrong with the school system in this neighborhood which results in such a low graduation rate?" I don't view this as a feminist question. Not that a feminist might not be interested, but that it does not address any gender specific issue, nor does it require any examination of gender specificity. Your other question "Why are so few POC/women hired in specific industries when they are strongly represented as applicants?" is more typically feminist. The questiion you do not ask, however, is equally important in the context of the discussion of misandry. This is "Why is the enrollment of women in colleges and universities disproportionately high compared to men?" By only asking questions that have no gender specificity or when they do, concern only areas where women are disadvantaged, you may be exhibiting a type of misandry. Even if your brand of feminism dares to ask such a question, the way it approaches it could still be indicatative of misandry.

    As to the definition of rape, there is a considerable amount of gray area as to what does or does not constitute rape. Like Mark, I could probably write pages on the subject. But I will attempt to address the issue in a nutshell, but please don't consider this answer to be all-inclusive.

    Rape is sex that is unwanted when when it is forced upon another person against their will and when that person clearly communicates that is it unwanted and against their will, provided they are capable of communicating. This is not to say that consent should be implied due to the lack of communication. It is this communication (and definition of what constitutes consent) that creates the gray areas.

    For instance, is it rape if a man walks into the woods with a woman after each has consumed alcohol (but are only slightly impaired). The man gently pushes the woman to the ground, lays on top of her, begins kissing and touching, and when the woman does not object, the man undresses her, and initiates sexual intercourse? There is no indication that this occurred against the will of the woman, but there is no indication of consent either. Care to answer?

    -TDOM

  24. Posted by: Otoki on 6/9/2010 12:19 AM
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    Thank you Mark, TDOM and Nate for your replies.

    I'm running off to work, but I greatly look forward to continuing this civil discussion. It's refreshing after the cluserfuck of fail that was Berge's comment section.
  25. Posted by: Nate on 6/9/2010 2:34 AM
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    "It's refreshing after the cluserfuck of fail that was Berge's comment section."

    Some people actually do think like that! Which is why I value free-speech; it exposes these wackos to public criticisms, who otherwise would lurk in the darkness unaccounted for.
  26. Posted by: Nate on 6/10/2010 2:49 AM
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    On the "wage-gap"

    In Australia, feminists are protesting the 'wage-gap' as if it exists because of patriarchy, gender-discrimination and male-privileged.

    Here is a feminists take on it:
    http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/10-things-women-can-do-while-dreaming-of-equal-pay/asc/

    Here is a rational take on it:
    http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/counterpunch-practical-ways-to-raise-womens-wages/

    One thing I dislike about the mainstream feminist take on this is that even though women are free to make the choices men make to get "equal pay"; they would rather cry victim that they're conditioned not to make those choices. Instead of being adults and making hard life-choices like everyone else manages to do (without whining); they cry foal and blame everyone for the phenomena rather than standing up and actually taking responsibility for their own actions.


    P.S. Stop insulting the THAI king!
  27. Posted by: Otoki on 6/10/2010 7:29 AM
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    Nate,

    I'm really not understanding why you labeled the two articles/essays as "feminist" vs "rational". The first one didn't address any issues about equal pay, and the second admits that female-dominated jobs are underpaid, and that the government should use different tools (including the market) to raise their wages.

    The article you labeled as "rational" was actually admitting that female-dominated jobs are, indeed, underpaid. The solution for public schools, (that students pay a few hundred a year for their education) is pretty ridiculous. How is that different from just raising taxes? Would poor students have to pay or not get an education? It just doesn't make sense in the real world. Of course, things are very different in OZ, so I shouldn't expect her ideas to be applicable to the American system.

    And what "actions" are women taking that continue to limit them in earning potential? Pay equality is much better now than it was twenty or thirty years ago, but why is it that so many important jobs like nursing, social work, and teaching are so under-paid, and are also woman-dominated? Why are traditionally male-dominated occupations still so much more lucrative? I'm not arguing about women going into economics/physics. I understand there being a gap between women and men when it comes to certain interests and careers.

    Do you consider sexual harassment to be a small issue worth dismissing rather than discussing as a real problem? Sexual harassment can go either way, but a majority of bosses/managers are men, while a majority of lower-level employees being sexually harassed are women. Do you think that sexual harassment prevents a significant number of women from achieving the same level of success as their male counterparts in a given company? What choices and actions are they supposed to take that their male counterparts would also take? Or is it possible that men and women both have experiences that are not necessarily interchangeable in many work settings?
  28. Posted by: Nate on 6/10/2010 7:45 AM
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    Oo shit. I linked to the wrong article, let me find it again.
  29. Posted by: Nate on 6/10/2010 8:13 AM
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    "And what "actions" are women taking that continue to limit them in earning potential?"


    Men are more willing to work unconventional hours, riskier jobs and jobs with a higher likelihood of permanent injury in old age or on the job. Men a more likely to work at the same place for longer and when they change jobs stay in a similar industry. Quite frankly; male-privilege, sexism and patriarchy are not contributing factors in most cases.



    "Pay equality is much better now than it was twenty or thirty years ago, but why is it that so many important jobs like nursing, social work, and teaching are so under-paid, and are also woman-dominated? Why are traditionally male-dominated occupations still so much more lucrative? I'm not arguing about women going into economics/physics. I understand there being a gap between women and men when it comes to certain interests and careers."


    Nursing, social-work and teaching are no more underpaid than finance, accounting of civil-engineering. It's worth what the market says it's worth.
    Society needs x units of y, there are z units of labour therefore based on the value the aggregate of society has assigned to this task and the number of people willing and able to do it, the value of the job is $ α.

    To make a case for discrimination, you cannot assert that those jobs are underpaid and then say "why is it so?". This is like the religious argument "the universe is complex, try and explain that! ... You see, god did it!".
    Firstly we need some rational basis to say they are underpaid, then we need to objectively look into the reasons why they're underpaid (if indeed they are). As this research has not been undertaken, you cannot say that they are - as a matter of fact - underpaid.

    Likewise, traditionally male jobs are lucrative because "law, accounting, engineering, science [...]" requires a high level of knowledge which drastically limits the number of people who are able to perform those tasks making their per unit value higher to society.
    Women aren't being kept out of these jobs either, they choose not to enter them (I can hear the socialisation argument warming up already, I'm happy to go there in my next reply if you wish?) -- as I pointed out with my civil engineering example. Even with affirmative action and more money spent on girls in school than boys on maths programmes, girls are only 2% of civil engineering graduates.



    "Do you consider sexual harassment to be a small issue worth dismissing rather than discussing as a real problem?"


    Can I ask you where you got this idea? It sounds a lot like the old "so when did you stop beating your wife?" question.



    "Sexual harassment can go either way, but a majority of bosses/managers are men, while a majority of lower-level employees being sexually harassed are women."


    Assertion. You need some facts here.
    There is no good reason to think sexual-harassment of women in the workplace is rampant and frequent.



    Do you think that sexual harassment prevents a significant number of women from achieving the same level of success as their male counterparts in a given company?


    No. Some women may not get promoted because of harassment, but no more than men don't get promoted for not being friends with the boss. Sexual harassment of women isn't rampant and frequent in the workplace; taking the view it is- is the wish to be a victim, to have an excuse.. an emotional crutch.

    I believe that some women use this as an excuse instead of being honest and critiquing themselves as to why they didn't get the promotion.



    What choices and actions are they supposed to take that their male counterparts would also take? Or is it possible that men and women both have experiences that are not necessarily interchangeable in many work settings?


    In "Why Men Earn More Than Women" (Dr. Warren Farrell), there are plenty of examples that answer this question.
    One of these, is to simply ask for a promotion - a lot of feminists say women are called bitches for doing this (and that is nothing but a pathetic excuse), because there is a derogatory word for men who are assertive at work, asshole.

    Feminism seems to be looking for a way to be victims in these circumstances, when they're only victims of their pessimistic incorrect world-view.

    The argument for a 'wage-gap' due to life-choices is far more solid and empirically backed than the feminist model.
    That's not to say that sexism doesn't exist in the work-force, but it's greatly exaggerated by feminists.
  30. Posted by: Nate on 6/14/2010 11:20 PM
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    ... come on Otoki, don't bail on me now.
  31. Posted by: bob on 6/15/2010 7:17 AM
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    "To whom are you replying and what aspect of their post particularly?"

    I was replying to Mark and his accusations of the women who post on here as being to emotional, as if to insult their intelligence, when they're just speaking their mind like everyone else. But when men start cussing, name calling, or making comments like all men should cut off all relationships with all women, they get no accusations like that at all.

    "That whacko Eivind thinks rape = equality,"

    Which I don't get, women could just flip that and justify taking of male parts. Neither one of those ideas are cool.

    "he isn't really a MRA."

    According to who?

    Were he to stand amongst his peers and recite content from his blog; he would be rejected, shamed and disavowed."

    And so would a Feminist, thats why there are different types of Feminism. Some Feminist had different beliefs than others, so they were rejected and labeled as a different type of Feminists, while still possessing the Feminist label because of the beliefs that were the same. Eivind may be what is considered an Extreme MRA.
  32. Posted by: Mark on 6/16/2010 10:32 PM
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    I was replying to Mark and his accusations of the women who post on here as being to emotional, as if to insult their intelligence, when they're just speaking their mind like everyone else. But when men start cussing, name calling, or making comments like all men should cut off all relationships with all women, they get no accusations like that at all.


    Got a specific example?

    "he isn't really a MRA."

    According to who?

    Were he to stand amongst his peers and recite content from his blog; he would be rejected, shamed and disavowed."

    And so would a Feminist, thats why there are different types of Feminism. Some Feminist had different beliefs than others, so they were rejected and labeled as a different type of Feminists, while still possessing the Feminist label because of the beliefs that were the same. Eivind may be what is considered an Extreme MRA.


    I agree. I suspected that he wasn't a MRA since he goes under the rubric of "antifeminist" on his blog (http://eivindberge.blogspot.com/). And I call myself an anti-feminist rather than “MRA” in an attempt to clarify my position. However, if you Google “MRA site:http://eivindberge.blogspot.com/”, then you will see him make a few statements that he is a MRA (“And I am an MRA, not a misandrist.”). Now, he might have changed his position but i’m not interested in making a “no true Scotsman fallacy” if that’s what he considers himself then that’s what he is. However, no Men’s Rights organisation or leader endorses these views and I have not seen them anywhere. Ergo, he is a nut.
  33. Posted by: bob on 6/17/2010 8:02 AM
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    Got a specific example?


    Here are some of your quotes.

    If women stopped being so fearful and guided by their emotions then they would be less likely to buy into demagougic movements like feminism.


    This is the sign that the discussion is circling the drain. Your emotion is making you irrational and illogical.


    Sleep on it, calm down, and then re-read what you wrote. The sceptically minded person must discard personal anecdotes. Your experience or personal feeling on the status of women is not objective evidence.


    Bri. You are a stupid stupid person.


    This is starting to sound like an illogical overly emotional tirade from a bigot and a man hater.


    Is there a brain in your fucking skull?

  34. Posted by: Becky on 7/4/2010 7:52 PM
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    Despite the politically correct facade, PZ Myers is one of the biggest chauvinists on the Net.
  35. Posted by: Mark on 7/5/2010 1:19 AM
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    Despite the politically correct facade, PZ Myers is one of the biggest chauvinists on the Net.


    Could you clarify this point?
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