Comments

1. Posted by: Pankaj on 2/14/2009 4:14 PM
   
   Mark,
   
   You are a smart human being - and maybe conditions in UK are that bad, but your perceptions on the middle east are very skewed. I would suggest investigating it a little bit more - and not supporting any side. The whole place is a giant mess right now - for example, did you know that Israel created Hamas to oppose the PLO?
   
   Take care, and I hope you stop aligning with people who seem like friends but instead maintain your independence of view points. Usually because aligning means mudding your own views, and compromising on morality.
2. Posted by: ArgusEyes on 2/17/2009 7:01 AM
   
   Thanks. That point on Hamas is interesting. I don't have time to read both sides and research it at the moment but it is a slight red herring.
   
   I basically agree with Charles Krauthammer's position here:
   
   http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/01/AR2009010101780.html
   
   If you could tell me why this is an erroneous position then I would appreciate it.
   
   Mark
3. Posted by: Pankaj on 2/18/2009 4:18 PM
   
   Argus,
   
   The article is written only to be interpreted favorably by assuming before hand that Israeli government can do no wrong. Introduce that doubt and there isn't a faux morality that can compare with this article. As a libertarian, I would presume you would not knowingly claim that Israeli govt can do no wrong. Please read the article again - while wearing the shoes of a inhabitant of Palestine with no Hamas links. What if you question whether Israel is interested in killing members of an organization that Israel itself created, maybe sending the text messages does not tell you that Israel is being moral, rather that Israel is telling their people (Hamas) to get to a safe location - out of the way of the precision bombs? Isn't that what happens anyway? You would not think any hunter can be as dumb as to alert his targets to flee before attacking it... do you?
4. Posted by: ArgusEyes on 2/18/2009 9:49 PM
   
   Israel and Hamas are on the same side? What are they trying to achieve through all this?
5. Posted by: Pankaj on 2/19/2009 2:55 AM
   
   Yes, I was surprised too.. but its true. The libertarian hero - Ron Paul - has said so (not saying that you take his word for it... but I find him fairly reasoned and very truthful fellow). Like you, I don't have the time to go through all the details, but I do take Ron Paul's word over Krauthammer's.
   
   You haven't put yourself in the right shoes yet. It does not matter to the man on the street in Gaza, what these groups - Hamas, Israel or Fatah are trying to do - it matters to him that he sees death and destruction around him and he knows its coming from Israel. Heck he doesn't even have anyway to stop either from their actions - while his neighbors die.
   
   As for motives, you could engage in speculation. It is analogous to a feminist asking "Why would she lie about being raped?". Bunch of possible things - most of them wrong - some true - but all totally irrelevant. What matters is what is happening - leaving the peeping into motives to a time when the people involved can look at it in 3rd party perspective. I myself prefer a non-interventionist policy - just have nothing to do with either side - till they figure out a compromise.
6. Posted by: ArgusEyes on 2/19/2009 11:34 PM
   
   Arguments from proof are all that matter. I've not heard this from anyone apart from you. What's the strongest evidence you have for this theory?
7. Posted by: Pankaj on 2/20/2009 5:17 AM
   
   What theory? That Israel has created Hamas? Look at Fatah.. its Hamas II. It has rich leaders, who dictate gullible young men to commit acts of terror. Even a dog learns if you hit it everytime, it touches a toy that touching it again would bring down the stick.. Why, would Hamas, if it were really in control of Palestinians, fire rockets that are known to provoke attacks on Palestine? Its not like those rockets are killing anyone.. They would have been better off depending on drunk teenage drivers to inflict a better toll on Israelis, than these crude and dumb rockets.
   Also, both Palestinian government, and Israeli govt get benefits from big brother USA to keep the peace. But, peace for too long might give big brother different spending ideas than the convenient bribes to these two rug rats. Me thinks, its a giant theatre - where power elites benefit, while man on the street gets shot by another man in the sky. It is basically identical to the Iraqi-Shia-Sunni situation, with a little details changed.

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