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Hello there, my name is Mark, but you might know me as ArgusEyes on YouTube. I am a centrist/right libertarian, an atheist, a men's rights activist, a scientific skeptic, an ardent individualist, a bit of a misanthrope and a cowboy programmer.

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Hate Bounces: How man hating and man bashing harms women

http://www.geocities.com/rainforest/vines/3951/noback/hatebounces.html

Misogynists are not born they are made.

Once, a long time ago when the world was young, I loved women with all my heart and soul. I grew up among strong competent women who understood that all living things need to be taken care of and will flourish if that happens. The men I grew up with knew that as well. Everyone knew that people must live and work together and find ways to cooperate and just deal with the inevitable differences that arise and keep them in perspective. They knew that people are not perfect, but that most of them try to be as good as they can manage. They took the measure of a person in wholeness, and if there was more good than bad to a person, they accepted that person's faults as being part of the package which was still valuable, if a bit flawed. After all, nobody really is perfect. We all knew that.

Then, something happened. And that something was called feminism. I remember the early days of the movement when it was called "Women's Liberation" which was a high sounding and noble cause in a country which is founded on a document which cites liberty as one of 3 inalienable rights that every person has. No one with a sense of fairness and an understanding of civics could be against women being liberated and treated fairly. And, there was also the promise that some of the ways men were being treated unfairly would change along with it.

And, as the old joke goes: if you believe that one, then I have some lakefront property in the Mojave Desert I'd like to talk to you about.

I learned very quickly that feminism wasn't about liberating PEOPLE from their previously too restrictive roles which were assigned to them based on the plumbing they displayed at birth, but rather was founded on a number of absolute falsehoods which had nothing to do with freedom, equality, or fairness. The fundamental premise that men had MORE power, not just a different kind of power and in a different area of society as a whole, but MORE power in a complete and absolute sense was something that I vehemently disagreed with. I could come up with thousands of examples of circumstances in which women had more power than men did. And in every example they gave of where men did have any power, I could easily point out the uneven distribution of power among men, and how a few men at the top of the wealth/influence pyramid had a lot of power, but that the vast majority of men had very little.

The strangest thing was that most of the situations in which I was being told I had or was exercising "power" seemed absolutely ridiculous to me. When I was a college freshman, one day I was walking across campus toward the student union. I reached the door about a half step ahead of a female student so, as I had been brought up to do, I hastened my last couple of steps and held the door open for her. Instead of the smile and nod that I had been used to in response to such simple acts of social courtesy, she flew into a rage and started screaming at me about how what a male chauvinist PIG I was, that she was perfectly capable of opening that door for herself and didn't need any g-- damned MAN to do it for her, and kicked me in the knee.

"Shock" is a totally inadequate word to describe my response.

I was at a loss to understand any of her reaction. She couldn't have been any more totally, completely, and absolutely wrong about my motivations and purposes. I instantly assigned her to the categories of "mentally defective", "hate filled", and female. Over the next several years, a lot of women joined her company.

A couple of years later, a woman that I was dating described her feminist "consciousness raising" group as consisting of "perfectly satisfying man hating sessions." Again, I was bewildered. I asked why she found hating me(n) so "perfectly satisfying". I don't remember the answer she gave, but she soon proved to me just how true that statement was of her. Like the knee-kicker in response to having a door opened, it seemed that anything and everything I did was proof that I deserved her hatred and rancor. At least 10 years later, she called me out of the blue to apologize. She said she realized that she had just gotten swept up in a group consciousness of hatred and had finally realized what had happened and that I had not deserved the bile she had spewed on me.

It was, I suppose, better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, but it was too little and too late. Because, by then I had encountered so many other women who acted in pretty much the same way that it had simply become part of my view of what women were. Somewhere, deep down inside, either hidden or proudly displayed, women hated men. Women came in a variety of sizes and shapes, most had breasts and female genitals, but they all seemed to come with a hatred and fundamental contempt for men. One woman I dated while Jimmy Carter was still president, spoke of "my hatred of men" in the same mattter-of-fact tone that she might say "my nose". It was just an integral part of her.

Needless to say, this presented me with a significant paradox and source of internal conflict. Being a healthy heterosexual male, I had the natural and universal desire that men have to have a love relationship with a woman. But, how is it possible to love someone that returns hate for that love?

So, over time I began to develop a wary distrustful posture toward women. I still dated them, but I had become so conditioned to expect hatred from them that I simply accepted it as part of the price I had to pay in order to be involved with one. My desire for a relationship was still strong, but was opposed by a distrust and unwillingness to let someone who hated me get the upper hand over me. Thus, in my mind the concept of "commitment" became one and the same as "trapped in a relationship with someone who hates me." I was indeed one of those men who "wouldn't make a commitment."

The worst part of this, for me, is that it blinded me to the warning signals of some truly sick personalities. The hostility which I had become accustomed to enduring from women became only a matter of degree - greater or lesser. And, with a baseline of being kicked in the knee for the courtesy of opening a door, and learning how "satisfying" man hating is to some women, I had no yardstick to sort out the seriously sick and deranged women from any of the rest. As a result, I ended up in some relationships that were truly horrible and very damaging to me. And, of course, each of these left scars which over time built up so much emotional scar tissue that I began to lose all the positive feelings I once had for women.

That is the personal side. And, I won't bore you with the details of all the stories. But, there eventually got to be so many that I developed the attitude that the question was not "whether" a woman would burn me if let her get close enough to do so, but "when" and "how soon" it would happen.

On the political side, things were just as bad if not worse. About the same time I started becoming the target of violent physical attacks by individual women for what I perceived as courtesy, I also became the target of vicious verbal attacks by women collectively - just for being a man.

I remember the first time I saw the slogan "A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle", I knew knew my face had just been spit in. Men were not just useless to women, we were irrelevant. We had no purpose in a woman's life, and did not belong in her world at all. It was a message of hate, dismissal, and refutation. But, I also saw it as a warning of what was to come. It was like seeing clouds on the horizon, and knowing that it is time to get under cover because a storm is brewing. And, since it was obviously smearing shit in my face, it was going to be a shit storm.

Soon it became apparent that women could say any damn thing they wanted about men - no matter how wrong, no matter how hateful, no matter how unfair - and that was fine, but every time I stood up to that and said "no, that is wrong, there is another point of view" I'd get some little fem-bot harpy in my face shrieking the same old tired slogans, like a mindless Chatty Cathy doll, about how I was threatened by losing my power, wanted to keep women "in their place", was probably violent, and was a misogynist. The dull predictability and regularity of it all was only kept from being terminally boring by the shrillness and sheer vehemence of the attacks.

There is a belief among those who believe in magic that one must speak a spell 3 times in order for it to become binding and true. It took being called a misogynist a lot more than 3 times to become true, more like 300+, but in time it did become true.

I began to see women as vicious creatures whose only agenda when it came to me, or any man, was to see how much they could get from the man - then when he had nothing left to give because they had taken it all, toss him out with yesterday's garbage. In short - as nothing but users. Feminist author Wendy Dennis came out with a book in the early 1990s called "Hot and Bothered: sex and love in the 90s." Among many other astute observations in the book was that nothing was more classically typical of the state of male/female relations than the woman who complained bitterly about every aspect of men, then couldn't figure out why she couldn't get one of these awful creatures to fall madly in love with her. I had observed the same thing so many times that I had simply concluded that such women were simply not very bright. In stark contrast to the mythology of how socially adept women are, I was baffled that such women were so stupid that they didn't realize that no living thing will respond to such projections of distaste, contempt, and hatred with anything except return animosity.

I took to avoiding women, particularly groups of them, because I could never sit quietly and put up with the bashing and would always challenge it, which ended me up in a lot of fights and added greatly the count of times that I got called "misogynist." I noticed that women seemed to do it habitually, without thinking, and would confront my female friends over and over until they learned not to do it in my presence.

And, after 3 decades of listening to it, and hating it, and trying to keep the animosity which had been building in me over it - when the husband of a woman friend of mine (who had been very dishonest about her motivations for our friendship and had been trying to harass me into turning our friendship sexual) threatened to kill me and she said "I don't know why you are making such a big deal about it", I caved in and began to really hate women.

Most of the time this hatred lies dormant. I figure that the best thing I can do for myself and for women is to keep the contact I must have with them to a minimum, and to keep as much distance between them and myself as possible. It is rather like hanging a sign on a fence that says "Beware of VERY bad dog." Stay outside the fence, and everything is fine. But, come through the gate at your own risk. Leave me the hell alone and I will leave you alone.

Misogynists are not born, they are made.

I am still baffled at all the women who seem to expect men to live on a steady diet of hatred and man bashing, and somehow magically metabolize this toxic diet into "love" for women and a desire to see good things come to them. When I work real hard, I can make the anger cold and take no joy when bad things happen to women, simply regard it with indifference. When I hear a woman whine about being victimized, I simply tune her out and go elsewhere.

When a woman smiles at me, I think of an old ethic bashing joke - "What does a ______ say instead of 'fuck you'?" answer "Trust Me.

I will not allow most women in my house unless I have known her a long time and she is old enough to have escaped being infected with the plague of man hating or is escorted by someone I trust, nor will I enter theirs except on the same conditions. If I pass a woman stranded on the road, I will not stop to help her because it is as likely as not that she will be afraid of me. That's fine. She's a fish without a bicycle - I have no place in her world, nor her in mine.

Man bashing and man hating harms women, because it makes men hate them back - eventually. A puppy returns love for love, but if you beat it will eventually turn mean and will one day turn on you when you raise your fist or your stick (or the club of words) to hit it. Men are no different. When women talk about treating men like dogs, I wish they would. It would be an improvement. Most women treat their dogs far better than they treat their men.

Somewhere along the line, I went through a metamorphosis. I changed from a man who loved women and thought they were just about the greatest thing in the world, to a man who can't stand them, or anything about them.

I'm sick and tired of the lies that women tell about men, I'm sick and tired of their victim games, I'm sick and tired of hatred and bashing I have to put up with when I am around them. I am sick and tired of the arrogant contempt in which they seem to hold me and all other men. I am sick to death of the way that some of them feel the need to seek me out to piss me off. A couple of years back, at the funeral of my uncle, as fine a man as I have ever known, some woman felt the need to start a conversation with me as I sat with my private grief. She wanted me to agree with her that men don't ask for directions.

How could anyone be so stupid and socially incompetent? When men came up to me to talk, it was always with something like "Your uncle was a fine man", not "aren't men headstrong and stupid?"

Invariably, when I tell a woman about all this, she tries to argue with me and say something like "get over it", or "why don't you take the gender out of it?" In return I ask, "why the hell don't you women get over it, and take the gender out of it?"

I would like nothing better than to be left in peace, and allow women to enjoy the absence of my company which they find so annoying and unpleasant. Every day, a few more men got through the transformation and become like me. We don't get our guns and shoot a few women; we don't beat them up; because what women have been saying about us all these years is just flat wrong. But, there's no point in trying to tell women that because they have become so certain of their superiority that the best way to deal with them is to leave them to it, and the company of their other fishy friends.



Sunday, October 19, 2008 3:13 PM
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Comments

# re: Hate Bounces: How man hating and man bashing harms women

Posted by: Isabelle on 7/4/2009 5:58 PM
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Absolutely true

Feminism is a devilish dogma designed to hurt,hate,bash ,denigrate,harm. It is nothing but evil.Evil for men first and then women as a consequence. But with feminism ,men are the target.It is becoming clearer and clearer to me.. I live in France ,a country which has passed from christianism to feminism. Yes,it is a Pagan religion,a dogma that plagues our country now ,as it has plagued yours.That victimisation of women is becoming more and more unbearable. Women are constantly at war with men. It is non sense. But what harms me most is that those Jezebels (I refer to the Bible and the usurpation of man's role by women) want to take the place of our heroes, ,the captains of our hearts as they want to be admired in men's uniforms making their functions. That is too much,that is more than I as a woman can bear. Are women Lesbians to admire women in uniforms? Women have always loved military men,men with high status etc...they do not care about women at all!

Absolutely true. Feminism harms true women deeply.

# Identity politics

Posted by: Jeff on 11/2/2009 11:39 AM
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Feminism didn't always look like this. There were grievous inequities, and it was natural for activists to rise up to address them. Like many other good ideas before and since, this one got hijacked. There are many women who are upset by that, and those who speak out against it are bashed at least as hard as men who do the same-- the radical feminist aim, of course, is to silence the critics by means of intimidation.

Historians identify phases of the feminist movement as a series of "waves"; in the second wave, feminism was hijacked by identity politicians. Identity politics can be defined somewhat simplistically as the claiming for a class of people a victim status, for the purpose of political gain. To be a victim logically requires a perpetrator; therefore, it is necessary to criminalize someone, and to polarize (the antagonism of black and white, with no gray in between) against them. Many identity-based activist groups have settled upon men as their perpetrators; fewer have settled upon "white" men.

Identity politics as an organizing principle for a social group brings many self-perpetuating evils. Members acquire a ready target on which to blame their problems, which tempts them to the luxury of ignoring the responsibility of their own lives. Bashing of the target group provides a cheap and easy way to feel better by making someone else feel worse. Successful activists develop a vested interest in the movement, in the form of political power, social status, and even wealth. Group cohesion and identity as a member become ends in themselves, beyond the injustices the group was originally formed to address. This leads such groups to maintain the illusion, at least, that the oppression and injustice still exists, long after conditions have substantially changed. What's more amazing is that members will go out of their way to provoke members of the "oppressor" group into the very attitudes and actions that the former claim to deplore-- radical feminists, and at least one ethnic group, are notorious for this behavior. Robert Merton's Self-Fulfilling Prophecy takes on an ever increasing role in identity-based political groups.

My shift in attitude towards said ethnic group, and the causes behind it, closely parallels your narrative. My feeling toward women is not too far behind, but is mitigated by less close contact with them (plus, I leave obvious man haters immediately), and I have managed to find a few generous souls in whom I could not find any hatred toward men. I am always willing to give a woman the benefit of the doubt but, like you, have come to expect the misandry to become manifest eventually, if not at first.

Identity politics doesn't just come back to bite its practitioners, it fosters factionalism, tribalism, and infantilism. It destroys social cohesion, and ruptures society. Abe Lincoln said it best: "A house divided against itself cannot stand." It's only a matter of time before we fall.

# Annecdote

Posted by: Jeff on 11/2/2009 7:25 PM
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Hi, me again. In your article, you mentioned that you did not want to narrate too many specific incidents. I hope you will indulge me in the narration of just one, because it seems to typify extremely the sort of vindictive venom that you describe.

I was out grocery shopping with a woman friend-- we were not extremely close, but more than just acquaintances. We were in the produce section talking away about something, while I was stood at one of the counter endcaps, sorting through some fruit on sale. I was nestled into a corner space formed by stacks of boxes that were located in front of the counter to extend its surface area.

Suddenly, a woman I had never seen before came barreling up to me, driving her trolley/shopping cart before her; she was nearly upon me before I even noticed her. She wedged the front of it into the space I was occupying, neatly pinning me in place. I was surrounded on three sides by stacks of boxes and the front of her trolley, while she leaned against the back end of it to hold me fast. My only physical means of exit would have been to push the trolley back, further into her abdomen. She then commenced to berate me soundly for hogging the counter and being in her way.

At this point, I imagined that I had three options: push the trolley back (and risk knocking her down); meekly apologize, and ask to be released; or be assertive and challenge the abuse. I chose the latter. I do not recall what I said, but would like to think that I managed to be assertive without becoming abusive in turn. Nevertheless, my friend took me to task (though mildly-- I guess my measured response was in my favour) for not apologizing for the sake of avoiding a public scene.

That happened years ago; I have wondered at it ever since. I have concluded that the intention of this perfect stranger was to sew dissension between my friend and I, perhaps with the hope of breaking us up. My alternative was to swallow humiliation and apologize, which carried its own risk of costing me the respect of my friend. Though it was possible for me to minimize the damage, in a real sense it was impossible for the stranger to lose, no matter which course I took. I am convinced that she saw all of this in a flash of insight, and acted upon it immediately-- she was nearly running with her trolley by the time she caught me up.

The idea that this perfect stranger could not tolerate to see a man and a woman enjoying each other's company and talking peaceably, and had to interfere in order to sew discord, goes really far to illustrate in what regard we men are held.

# re: Hate Bounces: How man hating and man bashing harms women

Posted by: ArgusEyes on 11/6/2009 12:11 AM
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Hi Jeff,

Thanks you so much for your thoughtful posts. I will need to take some time to re-read them and it is hard to get access to the internet here in N.Z. as I travel around.

Sincerely,
Mark

# re: Hate Bounces: How man hating and man bashing harms women

Posted by: Jeff on 11/7/2009 12:44 AM
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'Welcome, Mark. This seems a good place to say those things. There is one of your posts that I may want to critique. I hope you will feel the same about that (if I write it) or, at least, feel that it was even-handed.

>A couple of years later, a woman that I was dating
>described her feminist "consciousness raising"
>group as consisting of "perfectly satisfying man
>hating sessions."

I just recalled being present, some years ago, at an impromptu hate session where the target was...another woman. I wrote elsewhere, in another comment on your blog, that women don't particularly save their vindictive vitriol, their stratagems, and so forth, especially just for us, but do these things among themselves, as well. I repeat the observation here.

# re: Hate Bounces: How man hating and man bashing harms women

Posted by: Joana on 12/12/2009 4:22 PM
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Hi Mark, I just wanted to say how sorry I am that you had those experiences, and I apologize for everything that was said to you. I know that it doesn't make it better, but I felt compelled to say it.

I came across your blog when I searched for women against feminism. As a woman (I'm 24), I completely agree with everything that you said on this post and on your blog. I do not think of myself as a feminist, I hate feminism just as much as you do; it has done more harm than good.

Not all women think that they need men like a fish needs a bike--I've been with my amazing boyfriend for the past 8 years, and I cannot imagine my life without him, he means the world to me. And yes, I am not ashamed to admit that I need him, I need a husband and a family to complete me--my career doesn't do it (I have a master's degree in HR). Without my boyfriend, I'd be like a fish on dry land.

The point of this post was to ask you to give women a chance, not all of us are like that, and some of us know how wonderful men are and how much we need each other.

# re: Hate Bounces: How man hating and man bashing harms women

Posted by: Joana on 12/12/2009 5:57 PM
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One more thing....I've read a lot of feminism websites, and I thoroughly disagree with what they say; I see a lot of anger, resentment, bitterness and hatred.

However, I've also read MRA websites, and I can understand what men are saying and I find myself nodding in agreement. Also, instead of hatred, like on feminists' websites, I see a lot of confusion, pain and maybe even a bit of helplessness.

So, what can I do, as a woman, to help?

# re: Hate Bounces: How man hating and man bashing harms women

Posted by: ArgusEyes on 12/13/2009 10:47 AM
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Hi Joana.

I feel slightly bad. I'm not actually recounting my own experience in these videos and post, but I am reading an essay written by another person. I should have made that more clear, I do state it as such in the video description but should have done so at the top of the article.

So don’t worry about me, I’ve not had such bad experiences although we all have had some experiences like the ones I talk about in the video. This is the only piece of work from another person that I’ve read (to the best of my recollection) and the reason I did so is that I read this piece when I was starting out in my anti feminist ways and it had a big impact in that it stated my feelings at the time in clarity.

To answer your question on what you can do to help. I’m not really the activist guy here but one good thing is if the women like you who feel this way should speak up and try to convince other women who lend tacit support to feminism or relay the standard feminist arguments. I think that to hear this from another woman means they would be more willing to listen.

Mark

# re: Hate Bounces: How man hating and man bashing harms women

Posted by: Virag on 12/28/2009 7:47 AM
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A very apt article, but very few would be ready to understand it and accept it, including men.

Most men do not take arrogance of women as abuse because it challenges their own identity of a protector, something men are not ready to confront.

The day men challenge the Protector inside them, women will have to run for cover. Some have already done so, its just a matter of time before the phenomenon becomes mainstream.

# re: Hate Bounces: How man hating and man bashing harms women

Posted by: AnnieMc on 1/5/2010 3:17 PM
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"I think that to hear this from another woman means they would be more willing to listen."

Oh, if only. *rolleyes*. They dictate to everyone, not just men, and if you're a woman who dares to say you're not a feminist, (you're a humanist, maybe?) you get a lecture on how ungrateful you are for what they allegedly are doing for you. Or that you don't understand what feminism REALLY is. (So what is it? They all seem to have their own definition. And man-hating definitely comes into a lot of those definitions.)

Still, I'll do what I can for my brothers. :)

# re: Hate Bounces: How man hating and man bashing harms women

Posted by: AnnieMc on 1/5/2010 3:26 PM
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P.S. I see a lot of men who are suspicious and resentful of all women because of these haters. Someone in the comments mentioned that they expect the misandry to be manifest even if it's not immediately apparent. This makes me genuinely upset, you know, and it may be selfish but it's the main reason that I want to support men's rights, to build bridges. I've always felt comfortable around men and seen you as my friends and I hate to be associated with the misandrists.

# re: Hate Bounces: How man hating and man bashing harms women

Posted by: ArgusEyes on 1/5/2010 11:59 PM
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@AnnieMc. I wish more people were as empathic as you. I don’t know how deep the “hatred” is, I feel that often that the manbashing thing is just a trendy attitude to have amongst young women. People largely do what they’re told to do. The instruction can be from the societal zeitgeist.

# re: Hate Bounces: How man hating and man bashing harms women

Posted by: DD on 1/11/2010 10:09 PM
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Hi Mark, I liked your exposé. I am a woman and believe this 'ideology' is hurting all HUMANS - men or women. The wave around is not going to put you down but is going to influence your life, your conceptions, your feelings and your thoughts. Making generalizations and assuming all Humans are alike is wrong logic. DO not let them insult your intelligence!

# re: Hate Bounces: How man hating and man bashing harms women

Posted by: Daffyff on 1/20/2010 8:03 AM
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I'm fairly new to the MRA movement, but have been feeling a resentment towards the injustices of the feminist movement for some time. However, I cannot agree with the MRA movement either, seeing it as the beginnings of a vicious backlash that may already be happening on a subconscious level amongst men (the increase of violence in pornography being evidence of this).

I just don't see genuine man-hating as being as prevalent as jeff and the author of this essay seem to believe it to be.

# re: Hate Bounces: How man hating and man bashing harms women

Posted by: ArgusEyes on 1/23/2010 1:59 AM
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@Daffyff.

I understand the feeling of reticence in being attached to any movement. So don't call yourself an MRA then, just fight the injustices of feminism.

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